Saturday, August 10, 2013

My Talk With a Creationist

I recently had an interesting back-and-forth with someone on a Youtube comment section. I know, this sounds like an oxymoron; interesting back-and-forths on Youtube happen about as often as a Halley’s Comet sighting. The topic which we discussed is a favourite of mine: Theology.
I've taken the time to transcribe this back-and-forth because I feel it's necessary to document any kind of respectful discussion between an Atheist (me) and a Creationist. Usually, such conversations turn sour and spiral into a not-so-clever competition of name calling and juvenile insults — on Youtube anyway.

*Note, because of the platform (Youtube), we were limited in the amount of characters available for each reply. Also, the order of the comments has been changed in an attempt at improving comprehensibility. We were firing off our comments quickly which resulted in different conversations happening simultaneously.

Here’s our conversation:

Him:
I think it’s silly how you refer to the theory of evolution as though it’s true.
(This was a reply to someone else's post)

Him:
It takes more faith to believe in the theory of evolution than it does God.
(Again, this was not directed at me.)

Me:
Wrong. There’s proof that backs evolution. Where’s the proof of God? Easier to believe in things you can quantify.

Him:
There is no proof of evolution. Can you prove even one sentence in the bible wrong?

Me:
I can’t prove a sentence wrong, but I also can’t prove that any of it is right. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Me:
I’m not going to argue with you because unlike you religious types, I’m not looking to convert you. Besides, it would be a waste of my time. You’re allowed to believe whatever you please, as am I. I don’t think any less of you for believing in God. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Deal with it. And I suppose your opinion that evolution isn’t science is based on years of study and research…like the millions of brilliant, dedicated scientists who claim that evolution is a fact? Have a good day.

Him:
Can you truthfully tell me that you believe we are random chance that has no purpose. That we came from nothing only to have our complex bodies come together by random chance? I will believe you if you can show me one instance in the universe where something comes from nothing. I don’t have the amount of faith you have to believe in the theory of evolution.

Him:
Someone needs to tell this guy the theory of evolution is not science.

Me:
Actually, I take back my statement. Here’s my argument (based on rational thought and history): Would a perfect being such as God use fear mongering in order to make people believe? Also, why has he let religion become the number one cause of war, death, famine, and wealth disparity throughout history? If God is all-seeing, all-powerful, and we were created in his image, why are we so imperfect and flawed? I have many more questions that the bible can’t answer. I believe in empiricism, not in fairy tales.

Me:
The thought that there is no after life, and that we are here purely because of chance and random events makes life all the more beautiful, amazing, and incredible. By believing that you have another life waiting for you after this one, you inadvertently decrease the extraordinary beauty of life itself — and its importance. Chance is amazing, calculated, pre-destined creation isn't. Your blind belief of life after death gives you something to look forward to (a purely human tendency in order to alleviate the pain and fear of death).

Me:
Your desire to have a bigger purpose is part of your flaw, and thus, your humanity. We do have a purpose; it is to procreate and survive as a species, not as individuals.

Me:
And no, I don't claim that we've come from nothing and have evolved out of chance. I'm not a scientist and I can't claim that I know anything about our origin — I've not done the necessary research, and I'm willing to bet you haven't either. But I can be certain that I don't believe the Universe is God's work.

Him:
I hope you don’t close yourself off to the fact that this universe was created. I can’t wrap my head around why people believe it came about all on its own. Nothing comes from nothing, this is a fact. Although I think this issue goes deeper than facts. I believe people hold the view of evolution because they want to live life the way they see best. They don’t want to submit to the creator.

Him:
Evolutionists put faith in the idea that something did come from nothing. That’s why I say it takes faith to be an evolutionist more so than a Christian.

Me:
That’s the beauty of science; it doesn’t claim to have all the answers. I am open to pretty much anything, but if it turns out that we were truly created by an all-powerful being, then there are a few things I’d like to discuss with him when the time comes.

Me:
If there is, indeed, a creator, why would he need for me to submit to him in order to grant me eternal life? This seems a little narcissistic for a perfect being. He should applaud me for being curious and skeptical…traits which he has apparently bestowed upon me.

Me:
Also, if nothing comes from nothing, then where did God come from? Who created him?

Him:
I am happy you are open to the truth. You say you want to speak to him when the time comes. The time is now. Speak to God now because he is listening. There is no secret to prayer, it is just us talking to God like we talk with each other. Ask him if he is real and he’ll reveal himself to you.

Him:
If you want to debate with me, it would be best if you would read the bible. I have learned about evolution growing up in school and reading on my own… I recommend starting the bible in the chapter John. It would be narcissistic if God forced us to submit but he doesn’t… To answer your other question, no one created God. He always was, is and always will be.

Me:
I’ve read the bible. I don’t debate things without having been exposed to both sides of the argument. And he doesn’t force us per-say, but he gives us an ultimatum: believe in me and come to Heaven; don’t, and I condemn you to Hell. Sure, he gives us a choice, but it’s not a very fair one. Narcissism has nothing to do with free-will, and how you came to that conslusion is beyond me — and leads me to believe you have no idea what narcissim is.

Me:
The fact that he needs us to believe in him in order to grant us eternal life makes no sense and is by no means indicative of a supreme being. Rather, it makes it seem like he is extremely insecure and dependent of our love.

Him:
If you have read the bible you would know that He doesn’t need us for anything. He is all sustaining. If you saw God face to face, you wouldn’t think he was a narcissist. You would worship him because he is amazing.

Me:
I have read the bible, but I've read between the lines, made connections, and witnessed the illogical and contradictory claims it makes. The thing about truth is that it isn’t universal. It’s very subjective, and unfortunately, your truth doesn’t necessarily make it mine. But thank you for remaining courteous throughout our exchange. We won’t arrive at an agreement here, so let’s agree to disagree.

Him:
You are wrong about there being no universal truth. The statement “there is no universal truth” is in fact a self-contradiction. Thank you for the conversation, it has been stimulating. I will keep you in my prayers. Take care, Pierre.

Him:
Sorry if I came across harsh, I didn’t mean to. Sometimes I type things and they don’t read as I meant them to.

Me:
Thank you for the conversation. And I didn’t find any of your comments rude or harsh. Believe it or not, this has been one of the more respectful discussions I’ve ever had with a “believer”. Cheers.

After our conversation, and again after re-reading this transcript, it’s become increasingly apparent that most of my hard questions went unanswered. In my mind, devout individuals are extremely adept at deflecting questions and at accusing Atheists of misunderstanding the bible — which is perhaps why politics and religion are so often interwoven.
I have no ill-will towards Creationists — only those who try to shove their religion down my throat — and I believe that there are some inherently positive messages in the bible, and in theory, they could make the world a better place — in theory. In practice, historically, religion has been associated with wars, murders, scandals, and all sorts of unholy things at the hands of supposedly holy men. The argument can be made that they are, indeed, only men, and their transgressions do not disprove the existence of God, but their unwavering worship and dedication to Him, along with the existence of the bible, do not prove his existence, either. We are at an empirical deadlock.

I can firmly say that I don’t believe in God — and perhaps he exists and I’m wrong — but that freedom and right to make mistakes is what makes me human; I am curious; I am skeptical; I am human. If God can forgive sinners who have committed murder, rape, or other terrible acts, then I assume it would be easy for him to forgive me for my seemingly innocent offenses. That said, it makes more sense for me to believe in science — tangible proof — rather than in speculative, wishful, and faith-based beliefs. I have a propensity for rationality, and if that makes me unworthy of a theoretical god’s approval, then so be it. 

But what kind of God does that make him?

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